Printing a narrower page in Impression

[Harriet Bazley]

I'm trying to get Impression to print out a document using a 'book'
page size ratio of 5.5"x8.5" (actually 5.5"x8.3", since this makes it
possible to print 2-up onto an A4 sheet of 8.3"x11.7") as opposed to the
wider A5 page size.

Unfortunately this seems to mean that when I print it out in Pamphlet
mode using my custom-size master pages, Impression spaces the pages out
to fit an A4 sheet, and I get a very wide inside page margin (about 1.6"
instead of the one inch or so expected). Do I need to define a custom
page size in !Printers as well? I have a nasty feeling that isn't
going to work, because the printer does a short-edge flip, so if the
physical sheet of paper is longer than the printer has been told it is
then it will find itself printing the reverse side too close to the end.
(And I'm not sure if the feed tray is physically capable of handling an
8.3"x11" page.)


And is it possible to use the duplex ability of my laser printer? I
can't see a way of doing that, because when Impression generates a
pamphlet it generates all the pages for one side of the paper first, and
then all the pages for the other side in a second pass, whereas duplex
printing requires the fronts and backs to be interleaved alternately....


<reads ironic auto-generated tag line!>

[Jean-Michel]

Post by Harriet Bazley
I'm trying to get Impression to print out a document using a 'book'
page size ratio of 5.5"x8.5" (actually 5.5"x8.3", since this makes it
possible to print 2-up onto an A4 sheet of 8.3"x11.7") as opposed to the
wider A5 page size.
Unfortunately this seems to mean that when I print it out in Pamphlet
mode using my custom-size master pages, Impression spaces the pages out
to fit an A4 sheet, and I get a very wide inside page margin (about 1.6"
instead of the one inch or so expected). Do I need to define a custom
page size in !Printers as well? I have a nasty feeling that isn't
going to work, because the printer does a short-edge flip, so if the
physical sheet of paper is longer than the printer has been told it is
then it will find itself printing the reverse side too close to the end.
(And I'm not sure if the feed tray is physically capable of handling an
8.3"x11" page.)
And is it possible to use the duplex ability of my laser printer? I
can't see a way of doing that, because when Impression generates a
pamphlet it generates all the pages for one side of the paper first, and
then all the pages for the other side in a second pass, whereas duplex
printing requires the fronts and backs to be interleaved alternately....

Hello,
Have you tried !Ovation, you can load the Impression files and the
Ovation print manager may allow you to do what you want.

Ovation is free, thanks to David Pilling.

Post by Harriet Bazley
<reads ironic auto-generated tag line!>

"A poor workman blames his tools."

Witch tools :-)

[Harriet Bazley]

Post by Jean-Michel

Post by Harriet Bazley
I'm trying to get Impression to print out a document using a 'book'
page size ratio of 5.5"x8.5" (actually 5.5"x8.3", since this makes it
possible to print 2-up onto an A4 sheet of 8.3"x11.7") as opposed to the
wider A5 page size.
Unfortunately this seems to mean that when I print it out in Pamphlet
mode using my custom-size master pages, Impression spaces the pages out
to fit an A4 sheet, and I get a very wide inside page margin (about 1.6"
instead of the one inch or so expected).

John Norris came up with the answer to this one - when printing onto an
A4 sheet, you do *not* use a custom master page size. You define your
master pages to A5 dimensions in order to ensure that Impression
positions the inner page margins side by side in the centre of an A4
page, and then you create custom *frames* within that A5 spread to
define the position and proportions of the actual printed page.



|------------------| |------------------|
| A5 page | | |
| |------------| |------------| |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | custom | | | |
| | page | | | |
| | size | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
|-----|------------| |------------|-----|


produces

|------------| |-----------|
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
|------------| |-----------|

when printed as a pamphlet onto A4, and can then be cropped to size as
desired. A bonus is that you can even get crop marks to show up, whch
you can't when attempting to define the edges of the page by altering
the master page size.



On 13 Dec 2023 as I do recall,

Post by Jean-Michel
Hello,
Have you tried !Ovation, you can load the Impression files and the
Ovation print manager may allow you to do what you want.
Ovation is free, thanks to David Pilling.

Since I have no experience at all of using Ovation and no assurance that
its print manager works any differently to those in Impression and !PDF
(both of which assume that 'double-sided' means two passes through the
printer and arrange the order of the pages accordingly) I'll probably
just stick to turning the pages over and putting them back in as
Impression expects. The killer issue was that I couldn't get them to
print in the right position relative to one another, and that is now
fixed. :-)

[Chris Hughes]

Post by Harriet Bazley

Post by Jean-Michel

Post by Harriet Bazley
I'm trying to get Impression to print out a document using a 'book'
page size ratio of 5.5"x8.5" (actually 5.5"x8.3", since this makes it
possible to print 2-up onto an A4 sheet of 8.3"x11.7") as opposed to the
wider A5 page size.
Unfortunately this seems to mean that when I print it out in Pamphlet
mode using my custom-size master pages, Impression spaces the pages out
to fit an A4 sheet, and I get a very wide inside page margin (about 1.6"
instead of the one inch or so expected).

John Norris came up with the answer to this one - when printing onto an
A4 sheet, you do *not* use a custom master page size. You define your
master pages to A5 dimensions in order to ensure that Impression
positions the inner page margins side by side in the centre of an A4
page, and then you create custom *frames* within that A5 spread to
define the position and proportions of the actual printed page.

[snip]

Post by Harriet Bazley
when printed as a pamphlet onto A4, and can then be cropped to size as
desired. A bonus is that you can even get crop marks to show up, whch
you can't when attempting to define the edges of the page by altering
the master page size.

Good to see you have a solution for your problem.

Post by Harriet Bazley
On 13 Dec 2023 as I do recall,

Post by Jean-Michel
Hello,
Have you tried !Ovation, you can load the Impression files and the
Ovation print manager may allow you to do what you want.
Ovation is free, thanks to David Pilling.

Since I have no experience at all of using Ovation and no assurance that
its print manager works any differently to those in Impression and !PDF
(both of which assume that 'double-sided' means two passes through the
printer and arrange the order of the pages accordingly) I'll probably
just stick to turning the pages over and putting them back in as
Impression expects. The killer issue was that I couldn't get them to
print in the right position relative to one another, and that is now
fixed. :-)

Ovation Pro print configuration, is generally much better then
Impression's.

I tend to use Ovation Pro rather then Impression, partly because Ovation
Pro is fully 32 bit, against Impression still being mostly 26 bit. Ovation
Pro is now free - download direct or via PlingStore.

Regarding Duplexing, as you are using a laser printer have you not got
Richard Darby's Duplex printer drivers, two versions available one for
Postscript capable printers and the other for use with PCL capable
printers. They are excellent.

Available for free from PlingStore.

[Harriet Bazley]

On 14 Dec 2023 as I do recall,
Chris Hughes wrote:

[snip]

Post by Chris Hughes
Regarding Duplexing, as you are using a laser printer have you not got
Richard Darby's Duplex printer drivers, two versions available one for
Postscript capable printers and the other for use with PCL capable
printers. They are excellent.
Available for free from PlingStore.

I do have a duplex printer driver (though I'm not quite sure any more
whereabouts in !Printers the relevant resouces are located!)

The issue is that pamphlet printing in Impression outputs all the 'front
sides' at once, then a 'Please turn over' message followed by all the
'back sides', and in order to get the required result using the duplex
printer option it would need instead to interleave them -- first front
side, first back side, second front side, second back side, etc.
Printing on both sides of the page is absolutely fine if you are using a
normal A4 single page layout where the pages are emitted consecutively,
but it gets a lot trickier when you try to combine this with a more
complex 'imposition' of the pages on a sheet that is supposed to be
folded.

It looks as if Ovation specifically *can* handle duplex printing of
pamphlets: https://www.davidpilling.com/cd/DavidPilling/Documentation/Pdf/12_print.pdf
(although it instructs you to 'see under Properties', and 'Properties'
in section 12.3 simply says "This opens the usual Windows window
allowing you to configure the current printer", which is not entirely
encouraging - I assume that is the same thing as enabling the duplex
option under the 'Configure...' menu entry in the Printer Control window
in the RISC OS Printer Manager, which I have to say has always seemed
pretty obscure as a means of access!)

[Chris Hughes]

Post by Harriet Bazley
On 14 Dec 2023 as I do recall,
[snip]

Post by Chris Hughes
Regarding Duplexing, as you are using a laser printer have you not got
Richard Darby's Duplex printer drivers, two versions available one for
Postscript capable printers and the other for use with PCL capable
printers. They are excellent.
Available for free from PlingStore.

I do have a duplex printer driver (though I'm not quite sure any more
whereabouts in !Printers the relevant resouces are located!)

The files end up in choices - printers

Post by Harriet Bazley
The issue is that pamphlet printing in Impression outputs all the 'front
sides' at once, then a 'Please turn over' message followed by all the
'back sides', and in order to get the required result using the duplex
printer option it would need instead to interleave them -- first front
side, first back side, second front side, second back side, etc.
Printing on both sides of the page is absolutely fine if you are using a
normal A4 single page layout where the pages are emitted consecutively,
but it gets a lot trickier when you try to combine this with a more
complex 'imposition' of the pages on a sheet that is supposed to be
folded.

Yes I well remember that when I printed the club newsletter, when we used
Impression.

Post by Harriet Bazley
It looks as if Ovation specifically *can* handle duplex printing of
pamphlets: https://www.davidpilling.com/cd/DavidPilling/Documentation/Pdf/
12_print.pdf
(although it instructs you to 'see under Properties', and 'Properties'
in section 12.3 simply says "This opens the usual Windows window
allowing you to configure the current printer", which is not entirely
encouraging - I assume that is the same thing as enabling the duplex
option under the 'Configure...' menu entry in the Printer Control window
in the RISC OS Printer Manager, which I have to say has always seemed
pretty obscure as a means of access!)

I think you are looking at the Windows version for Ovation Pro manual, not
the RISC OS version.

Ovation Pro has printer options, for booklet, Pamphlets, Galley, Printers
Pairs, Thumbnails, and Tiles.

[Harriet Bazley]

On 13 Dec 2023 as I do recall,

Post by Jean-Michel

Post by Harriet Bazley
I'm trying to get Impression to print out a document using a 'book'
page size ratio of 5.5"x8.5" (actually 5.5"x8.3", since this makes it
possible to print 2-up onto an A4 sheet of 8.3"x11.7") as opposed to the
wider A5 page size.

[snip]

Post by Jean-Michel

Post by Harriet Bazley
And is it possible to use the duplex ability of my laser printer? I
can't see a way of doing that, because when Impression generates a
pamphlet it generates all the pages for one side of the paper first, and
then all the pages for the other side in a second pass, whereas duplex
printing requires the fronts and backs to be interleaved alternately....

Hello,
Have you tried !Ovation, you can load the Impression files and the
Ovation print manager may allow you to do what you want.
Ovation is free, thanks to David Pilling.

Well, I've downloaded Ovation and worked out how to use the printing
features (and then downloaded an additional !Contents applet not
included in the archive, because Ovation uses a different page numbering
convention from Impression, rendering the existing contents page
invalid, and doesn't appear to possess any inbuilt ability to generate
one itself...)

But I'm not sure it's actually saving any time, because due to the way
that Ovation numbers its pages - it leaves blank pages when starting a
new chapter on the right-hand side, but doesn't include those in the
numbering system - the only way to get it to print off a long document
in 32-page sections is to fiddle around with the page ranges required
until you get the result to look right in a test printout to PDF.
Impression uses the absolute page numbers when requesting printout and
nunbers blank pages; Ovation uses whatever number is being physically
printed on the page, which becomes increasingly far adrift from
multiples of 32 as I progress through the document!

(No doubt somebody has written an applet called !Sections that will
include blank pages when calculating printed section size...)

[b***@bcs.org]

Well, I've downloaded Ovation and ... <snip>

Harriet, if you have the time and inclination to pursue using OPro,
remember that David Pilling answers all sorts of queries on his quite
active mailing list. To subscribe goto:
http://www.freelists.org/list/davidpilling

Bernard

[Harriet Bazley]

On 18 Dec 2023 as I do recall,

Post by b***@bcs.org

Well, I've downloaded Ovation and ... <snip>

Harriet, if you have the time and inclination to pursue using OPro,
remember that David Pilling answers all sorts of queries on his quite
http://www.freelists.org/list/davidpilling

Thanks - I've printed the document overnight via the hard labour of the
trial-and-error method (adding 30 to the page number of the previous
section gives an approximate end, and then I used printing to PDF,
reducing the page count by one on each attempt, to discover when the
resulting printout went down from 18 pages to the desired 16 with text
printed on both sides of the final page). I probably shan't be doing
this particular exercise again...!

[Richard Darby (news)]

Post by Harriet Bazley
On 18 Dec 2023 as I do recall,

Post by b***@bcs.org

Well, I've downloaded Ovation and ... <snip>

Harriet, if you have the time and inclination to pursue using OPro,
remember that David Pilling answers all sorts of queries on his quite
http://www.freelists.org/list/davidpilling

Thanks - I've printed the document overnight via the hard labour of the
trial-and-error method (adding 30 to the page number of the previous
section gives an approximate end, and then I used printing to PDF,
reducing the page count by one on each attempt, to discover when the
resulting printout went down from 18 pages to the desired 16 with text
printed on both sides of the final page). I probably shan't be doing
this particular exercise again...!

I commend you for your perseverance. I must admit I have never tried to
produce a booklet from RISC OS directly. Also there is no provision for
booklet printing from my Duplex PostScript printer driver. However you
may get more joy with the PCL version as it handles paper in a more
traditional !Printers way, but that may still be limited.

When I want to produce a booklet I use the Brother printer driver on
Windows. On RISC OS I produce the material and print that to pdf,
transfer the file to Windows and print that as a booklet on my duplex
printer. The printer driver takes the A4 pages reduces them to A5,
re-orders the pages and prints them with page 1 and the last page on one
side and page 2 and the penultimate page on the other (which may of course
be blank if the number of pages is not divisible by 4). It then works its
way through the pages till it gets to the middle. The printed pages are
then in the correct order and can be stapled together and folded into a
booklet. This makes booklet printing really easy.

Richard Darby.

[Harriet Bazley]

On 18 Dec 2023 as I do recall,
[snip]

Post by Richard Darby (news)

Post by Harriet Bazley
I've printed the document overnight via the hard labour of the
trial-and-error method (adding 30 to the page number of the previous
section gives an approximate end, and then I used printing to PDF,
reducing the page count by one on each attempt, to discover when the
resulting printout went down from 18 pages to the desired 16 with
text printed on both sides of the final page). I probably shan't
be doing this particular exercise again...!

I commend you for your perseverance. I must admit I have never tried to
produce a booklet from RISC OS directly. Also there is no provision for
booklet printing from my Duplex PostScript printer driver. However you
may get more joy with the PCL version as it handles paper in a more
traditional !Printers way, but that may still be limited.

There are plenty of programs on RISC OS that produce output in booklet
format (I've used Ovation, Impression and !PDF within the last few days)
- the problem is of printing a longer document in *sections*, i.e. as
multiple consecutive booklets that can be bound together, rather than as
a single ridiculously fat 'booklet'.

This happens to be more difficult in Ovation as a side-effect of its
page numbering system, where blank right-hand pages are not numbered
(so you cannot predict how many printed pages will appear on, say, 6
sheets of paper in booklet format).

Post by Richard Darby (news)
When I want to produce a booklet I use the Brother printer driver on
Windows. On RISC OS I produce the material and print that to pdf,
transfer the file to Windows and print that as a booklet on my duplex
printer. The printer driver takes the A4 pages reduces them to A5,
re-orders the pages and prints them with page 1 and the last page on one
side and page 2 and the penultimate page on the other (which may of course
be blank if the number of pages is not divisible by 4). It then works its
way through the pages till it gets to the middle. The printed pages are
then in the correct order and can be stapled together and folded into a
booklet. This makes booklet printing really easy.

That really doesn't seem like something that is the job of a 'printer
driver' to me - wearing my RISC OS goggles I naturally assume that the
job of a printer driver is to 'draw' the requested image onto the page
as opposed to rendering it to screen, not to alter its layout, and the
role of a duplex printer is simply to print on both sides of the
page.... :-O

[Jean-Michel]

Post by Harriet Bazley
On 18 Dec 2023 as I do recall,
[snip]

Post by Richard Darby (news)

Post by Harriet Bazley
I've printed the document overnight via the hard labour of the
trial-and-error method (adding 30 to the page number of the previous
section gives an approximate end, and then I used printing to PDF,
reducing the page count by one on each attempt, to discover when the
resulting printout went down from 18 pages to the desired 16 with
text printed on both sides of the final page). I probably shan't
be doing this particular exercise again...!

I commend you for your perseverance. I must admit I have never tried to
produce a booklet from RISC OS directly. Also there is no provision for
booklet printing from my Duplex PostScript printer driver. However you
may get more joy with the PCL version as it handles paper in a more
traditional !Printers way, but that may still be limited.

There are plenty of programs on RISC OS that produce output in booklet
format (I've used Ovation, Impression and !PDF within the last few days)
- the problem is of printing a longer document in *sections*, i.e. as
multiple consecutive booklets that can be bound together, rather than as
a single ridiculously fat 'booklet'.

In your list of programs I don't see EasyWriter/TechWriter?
I have uploaded the Rhapsody4 manual to my website which I am currently
copying from an OCR file.
https://jeanmichelb.riscos.fr/Rhapsody4.html
File: ManCh1-8

The paper manual is in A5 format, I tried to keep it, but without success
the pages were no longer in order. when printing to PDF.

Post by Harriet Bazley
This happens to be more difficult in Ovation as a side-effect of its
page numbering system, where blank right-hand pages are not numbered
(so you cannot predict how many printed pages will appear on, say, 6
sheets of paper in booklet format).

Post by Richard Darby (news)
When I want to produce a booklet I use the Brother printer driver on
Windows. On RISC OS I produce the material and print that to pdf,
transfer the file to Windows and print that as a booklet on my duplex
printer. The printer driver takes the A4 pages reduces them to A5,
re-orders the pages and prints them with page 1 and the last page on one
side and page 2 and the penultimate page on the other (which may of course
be blank if the number of pages is not divisible by 4). It then works its
way through the pages till it gets to the middle. The printed pages are
then in the correct order and can be stapled together and folded into a
booklet. This makes booklet printing really easy.

That really doesn't seem like something that is the job of a 'printer
driver' to me - wearing my RISC OS goggles I naturally assume that the
job of a printer driver is to 'draw' the requested image onto the page
as opposed to rendering it to screen, not to alter its layout, and the
role of a duplex printer is simply to print on both sides of the
page.... :-O

[Harriet Bazley]

On 20 Dec 2023 as I do recall,
[snip]

Post by Jean-Michel

Post by Harriet Bazley
There are plenty of programs on RISC OS that produce output in booklet
format (I've used Ovation, Impression and !PDF within the last few days)
- the problem is of printing a longer document in *sections*, i.e. as
multiple consecutive booklets that can be bound together, rather than as
a single ridiculously fat 'booklet'.

In your list of programs I don't see EasyWriter/TechWriter?
I have uploaded the Rhapsody4 manual to my website which I am currently
copying from an OCR file.
https://jeanmichelb.riscos.fr/Rhapsody4.html
File: ManCh1-8
The paper manual is in A5 format, I tried to keep it, but without success
the pages were no longer in order. when printing to PDF.

I'm not very familiar with EasiWriter and couldn't see any way of
getting it to print in booklet format when I was looking through the
Guides directory (unless it uses some different term for it?)

[Brian Howlett]

Post by Harriet Bazley
I'm not very familiar with EasiWriter and couldn't see any way of
getting it to print in booklet format when I was looking through the
Guides directory (unless it uses some different term for it?)

Menu over EasiWriter window, then Misc>Print Options has a pamphlet
option.

[Jean-Michel]

Post by Harriet Bazley
On 20 Dec 2023 as I do recall,
[snip]

Post by Jean-Michel

Post by Harriet Bazley
There are plenty of programs on RISC OS that produce output in booklet
format (I've used Ovation, Impression and !PDF within the last few days)
- the problem is of printing a longer document in *sections*, i.e. as
multiple consecutive booklets that can be bound together, rather than as
a single ridiculously fat 'booklet'.

In your list of programs I don't see EasyWriter/TechWriter?
I have uploaded the Rhapsody4 manual to my website which I am currently
copying from an OCR file.
https://jeanmichelb.riscos.fr/Rhapsody4.html
File: ManCh1-8
The paper manual is in A5 format, I tried to keep it, but without success
the pages were no longer in order. when printing to PDF.

I'm not very familiar with EasiWriter and couldn't see any way of
getting it to print in booklet format when I was looking through the
Guides directory (unless it uses some different term for it?)

Meilleurs voeux pour 2024!

Thank you for viewing the document.
It is not easy to print or export. The phamhlet mode works but not for
creating a PDF document.
I just tested to get the file in good format, just using !Printer, edit an
A5 paper size and use it with the PDF output printer. By saving the file
as PDF we obtain the correct document.

I have an update on my site of the PDF file, and I left the EasyWriter
file for possible corrections.

[John Norris]

Post by Harriet Bazley
On 18 Dec 2023 as I do recall,

Post by b***@bcs.org

Well, I've downloaded Ovation and ... <snip>

Harriet, if you have the time and inclination to pursue using OPro,
remember that David Pilling answers all sorts of queries on his quite
http://www.freelists.org/list/davidpilling

Thanks - I've printed the document overnight via the hard labour of the
trial-and-error method (adding 30 to the page number of the previous
section gives an approximate end, and then I used printing to PDF,
reducing the page count by one on each attempt, to discover when the
resulting printout went down from 18 pages to the desired 16 with text
printed on both sides of the final page). I probably shan't be doing
this particular exercise again...!

For what my sixpennyworth is worth, I have been using Impression for more
than thirty years, for both commercial and domestic work. I'm not
criticising Ovation in any way as I don't use or it or know much about it
but I have been, and still am, a very satisfied Impression user.

[Dave]

In article <***@jrn.orpheusmail.co.uk>,
John Norris <***@orpheusmail.co.uk> wrote:
[Snippy]

Post by John Norris
For what my sixpennyworth is worth, I have been using Impression for
more than thirty years, for both commercial and domestic work. I'm not
criticising Ovation in any way as I don't use or it or know much about
it but I have been, and still am, a very satisfied Impression user.

We have an interesting situation here in our home office...

Fay, like John, has been using the Impression family for a lot of years,
and continues to use Impression Publisher for her work and personal
writings... She seems very happy with its capabilities and side steps my
suggestions to come over to the other side. :-)

OTOH. Though I was using Impression from Junior through to Publisher for a
number of years in both my business and personal writing, when OvPro came
along and I tried it out, it was a no brainer and I converted all my
business and personal documents to OvPro and never looked back.

I use both RISC OS and Windows OvPro.

I still have Publisher installed on my VRPC, but the only time it is ever
run is if Fay has a problem and asks my advice.

I guess a classic Horses for courses...

Dave